View Full Version : Copper water seals?
sickofpistons
03-02-2010, 09:11 PM
Just want to know if there is another alternative to the rubber or plastic water seals? Maybe copper seals for better reliability and fewer blowouts?
Just alot of questions stuck in my head that need answering, lol.
Max777
03-03-2010, 12:04 AM
I DID see a thread about some guy using copper wire for coolant seals on some junk engine, and they actually held up!
I couldn't find the post anymore, though.
TitaniumTT
03-03-2010, 01:08 AM
Pineapple offers a set, and there was rumor about a Viton o-ring from McMaster that fit...... don't think I would use it as a compression seal though.
classicauto
03-03-2010, 09:56 AM
If the plates and water seal grooves are in good shape, the car doesn't get overheated (ie. the rest of the cooling system is sorted for the use of the car) and you don't put washer fluid in your radiator :) the OEM's should last a very very long time.
I'm not aware of any actual copper ones, just the mentioned "heavy duty" versions. Personally, if you're toasting OEM coolant seals regularly, you'll likely have problesm with heavy duty ones because they are a symptom of another problem - not the cause.
sickofpistons
03-03-2010, 01:29 PM
If the plates and water seal grooves are in good shape, the car doesn't get overheated (ie. the rest of the cooling system is sorted for the use of the car) and you don't put washer fluid in your radiator :) the OEM's should last a very very long time.
I'm not aware of any actual copper ones, just the mentioned "heavy duty" versions. Personally, if you're toasting OEM coolant seals regularly, you'll likely have problesm with heavy duty ones because they are a symptom of another problem - not the cause.
Im not tousting them regularly I was just wondering if they made a more reliable set? Are there any sites that offer them?
RETed
03-03-2010, 02:40 PM
Why?
Are you having problems with the OEM stuff?
I've never had problems with the OEM stuff unless you:
1) Overheat the engine
2) Detonate the engine
What kind of power are you making?
Soft seals have been reliable in 400...500hp engines.
How much more power do you need???
I don't think used housing can handle higher levels of power / boost.
This almost requires BRAND NEW HOUSINGS (for tighter tolerance and less wear).
Last time I heard someone developing aftermarket seals, get in touch with banzaitoyota (I think) from the other forum - his made-from-the-same-stuff-they-use-in-nuclear-reactors came out to somewhere north of $1,000 PER SET.
-Ted
C. Ludwig
03-03-2010, 03:36 PM
Like has already been said, if you're cooking seals you have and underlying problem. A seal failing is simply a symptom, it's not the disease. Aftermarket seals are poor fitting hype.
sickofpistons
03-03-2010, 09:06 PM
Look people! I am NOT toasting seals so stop trying to toast me! I am going to school to study for engineering and was just WONDERING if there was such a thing!
DELETE THREAD
I want copper water seals! Fuck if I could make them fit though...
Whizbang
03-03-2010, 10:11 PM
straight copper = corrosion = bad
the plastic covered electrical wire from napa works tho (plastic coating prevents corrosion). Peejay has done this in his engines a few times and it works great and withstands heavy abuse.
sickofpistons
03-03-2010, 10:53 PM
Would you have to have the motor dowled, and would you have clearance issues with them. (IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING)
sickofpistons
03-03-2010, 10:56 PM
Would you have to have the motor dowled, and would you have clearance issues with them. (IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING)
With the seals from pineapple racing?
proz07
03-03-2010, 11:02 PM
We use something similar in jet engines turbine bearing sections they are ONE time use metal crush gaskets. They take literaly 30-45 min to torque down correctly not a big deal BUT I believe they would be a horrible application for this as the rotor housings can flex ever so slightly on higher hp/rpm applications. This alone will cause this type of hard seal to fail in short order i do believe. They are made of stainless steel as well fyi, look just like an o-ring just metal.
z
sickofpistons
03-03-2010, 11:04 PM
This is what pineappleracing offers.
Detailed Description
This is our exclusive Heavy Duty Water Seal kit for the 3-rotor 20B. We tested these seals for over 7 years in numerous street and track cars before offering them to our customers. They have proven to be a significant upgrade over the stock water seals. We use them in all our 5-year warranty motors. Also, these seals are re-usable if you need to reopen the motor to freshen it, as long as the mileage is not too high or the engine too overheated. In other words, if you make a mistake and blow up your engine or perhaps improperly clearance the seals or whatever, these seals can be removed, allowed to "rest" for about 30 minutes and be reused when you put the engine back together. Stock water seals must be disposed of when freshening an engine, even with just a couple heat cycles. Kit includes the water jacket o-rings, front cover o-ring (and backup washer, if needed), dowel o-rings, rear stationary gear o-ring and oil pedistal o-rings.
I really just wanted to know if there where such a thing as copper seals, and if they where any kind of an upgrade.
Honestly if you want to you could just use spring energized stainless steel O-ring.
It's overkill and you'll spend more money on it than other people, but you won't ever have to worry about blowing one unless the casing falls away.
12arotary
03-04-2010, 09:03 PM
straight copper = corrosion = bad
the plastic covered electrical wire from napa works tho (plastic coating prevents corrosion). Peejay has done this in his engines a few times and it works great and withstands heavy abuse.
I did it once after I saw peejays write up on his pport it worked great, it was in a 12a I had in an 85, the engine is still running as far as I know several thousand miles later and in the hands of another owner
sickofpistons
03-04-2010, 11:33 PM
Lol... Ted taking out the stops.
Honestly if you want to you could just use spring energized stainless steel O-ring.
It's overkill and you'll spend more money on it than other people, but you won't ever have to worry about blowing one unless the casing falls away.
Is there a site or a place that offers them so I can do some research?
Thanks:icon_tup:
Is there a site or a place that offers them so I can do some research?
Thanks:icon_tup:
Not off hand but google is your friend. But here's something to consider: do a cost benefit analysis for the seals. Dollar for dollar stock will come out on top. For instance you will need the relief measurements and need to know the compression numbers to ensure positive sealing.
When I was looking up these seals it was for a bomb (solid rocket propellant testing apparatus, not ordinance). The good was that they could withstand extreme pressures, temperatures, and enviroments. Unfortunately they also need a certain amount of pressure/force for them to create a seal. What you need to know for any specific metal seal is that force/pressure. If it's too large then you will deform and ruin an aluminum housing.
I'm honestly surprised no one has made an aluminum seal. You can get al that's not super tough, anneal it, and install. Torque it down to spec and you have a metal seal that won't damage the housing.
TitaniumTT
03-05-2010, 03:58 AM
I think you're right about ruining a housing Tyler.
I'm willing to bet the reason noone has really dealt with the solid off the self seals is that they're not continuous. There's going to be a back where one end begins/ends. To me that's a big risk for a leak. The right way to do it would be to make a casting based on a housing, and form a piece. But that's me. Frankly I don't think any thing more than stock is really needed in this case, unless there's extreme forces, or someone want to experiment, or someone is really cheap ;)
You could by-pass discontinuous seals by just cutting them out of a solid sheet, then sanding and grinding to specific tolerance. You'd still have to finish the seal even if casting it. But I don't think you could cast a seal--too small, and the metal too viscus.
RETed
03-07-2010, 05:20 AM
Introducing ANOTHER metal into the whole environment means more the possibility of creating a "battery".
All you need is an electrolyte (wow, most coolants will do!) that allows the media to run an electrical current.
Add a corrosive factor (wow, combustion by-products can do that!), and that should eliminate almost any of the softer and more reactive metals LIKE COPPER AND ALUMINUM.
It's bad enough that you have (cast) steel / iron in there + the aluminum / stainless steel rotor housing - they are already eating themselves from the galvanic corrosion.
Using this kind of system compromises long term reliability.
Looks like you haven't done your homework - you sure you're in college? - Mazda already experimented with copper support seals to the original water jacket o-rings way back.
THEY ABANDONED IT CAUSE IT WAS NOT NECESSARY AND A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY.
So, we're down to basically a RACE ONLY set-up.
KSP Engineering has put down 700+ hp levels on soft-type seals.
NO USE OF ANY COPPER OR METAL SEALS.
why don't you ask the pro racers that have been doing this reliably for years now...
Abel Ibarra comes to mine.
Almost any of the PR guys can help you here.
-Ted
My5ABaby
03-07-2010, 12:52 PM
I love this forum.
http://suchabastard.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/jerry-springer.jpg
Oh... Where is it...
http://420.thrashbarg.net/i_like_where_this_thread_is_going_ship_heading_int o_epic_storm.jpg
12arotary
03-07-2010, 09:47 PM
and here I liked this forum because everyone used to stay on topic and not just exchange insults :squint:
and here I liked this forum because everyone used to stay on topic and not just exchange insults :squint:
Give it some time--I'm sure it will get cleaned up mod style.
13bboy
03-07-2010, 11:24 PM
haha funny shit
12arotary
03-08-2010, 01:23 PM
^^^well 18 gauge plastic covered speaker wire is in one of my 12a's and working great, well last time i talked to the guy i sold it to it was and that was at least 5000 miles on it
Phoenix7
03-08-2010, 04:35 PM
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t313/RawSenses/officerBarbrady.gif
RETed
03-09-2010, 08:41 PM
^^^well 18 gauge plastic covered speaker wire is in one of my 12a's and working great, well last time i talked to the guy i sold it to it was and that was at least 5000 miles on it
Interesting...
I know a guy who used the right size cotton string / cord and just cover it with RTV...
-Ted
12arotary
03-09-2010, 09:57 PM
Interesting...
I know a guy who used the right size cotton string / cord and just cover it with RTV...
-Ted
that seems kinda hella risky
that seems kinda hella risky
Why? It's not directly exposed to flame, nor much of anything. If it works it works.
12arotary
03-09-2010, 11:01 PM
Why? It's not directly exposed to flame, nor much of anything. If it works it works.
seems like it would be more apt to absorb water or wear out quick
RotaryProphet
03-10-2010, 08:25 AM
that seems kinda hella risky
It'd be the same as running straight gasket sealer, except the cord would give it some resistance to stretching. You'd just have to be careful to ensure an even and consistent coating.
12arotary
03-10-2010, 10:52 AM
It'd be the same as running straight gasket sealer, except the cord would give it some resistance to stretching. You'd just have to be careful to ensure an even and consistent coating.
exactly, you'd have to be extra super careful to do it just right, hella risky I say haha
exactly, you'd have to be extra super careful to do it just right, hella risky I say haha
again, not so much. If it fits in the groove it's going to seal. You could put in hot glue and it would seal (until it's melting temp was reached... and it's viscus properties dropped like a rock).
12arotary
03-10-2010, 12:33 PM
again, not so much. If it fits in the groove it's going to seal. You could put in hot glue and it would seal (until it's melting temp was reached... and it's viscus properties dropped like a rock).
it just seems like string and rtv is going to wear out a lot faster than anything else
it just seems like string and rtv is going to wear out a lot faster than anything else
Why?
The heat cycling will only affect the RTV, and even that is made to be heat cycled.
It's no worse than rubber/silicon based seals. There's no "moving" parts involved, and once the seal has been made it's not going to suddenly be "unmade" unless something happens to the groove, ie: casting falls away, the engine is torn down, pressurized steam by-passes the groove and eats the seal, etc.
The main purpose of the seals is just to contain the coolant and keep it out of the combustion chamber. Pressure from the combustion process should be kept to a minimum on the seal itself--this provided by the geometry of the seal groove itself.
Rx-7fetish
03-10-2010, 05:34 PM
it just seems like string and rtv is going to wear out a lot faster than anything else
Ive got stright rtv on my t-stat housing and my water pump. Been there for bout 76000 miles just fine. I'd trust rtv, as long as there is enough to fill the groove good, thats where the string would come into play i believe. Sounds like a quick, im broke as hell, rebuild to me. I wouldnt trust it in a race or high hp car but a dd sure.
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