Thinking of water injection..any recommendations?

[FC3S Murray]

I have been searching recently for AUX injection just because I am looking for a safety cushion for my FC. I have read countless threads from the Aussie's and how most rotaries down under run water injection.

What i want to know is which company makes the best product.

I plan on using a single nozzle set-up that will spray right before the throttle body.

I have found a couple kits for a good price:

cooling mist: http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?feature_key=gasvehicles

Devils own: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/universal-stage-1-8.html


I have also considered doing dudeman's mechanical WI set-up.

Any input would be appreciated.

I will be running 14psi on 91 octane with my set-up(S4 13bt street ported, 62-1, 8.5:1 rotors, heavily modded) and this just seems like a smart investment.

[classicauto]

Best as I'm sure you know is relative to your goals.

Sounds like you're looking fora little saftey net, yes? Not a full blown 1500+cc of meth and 30psi setup?

I would personally recommend either snowperformance or devil'sown. They're both simple, inexpensive and on most accounts pretty reliable. My snow system has been running for over two years with a variety of fluids and nozzles. Im running a progressive kit with a single nozzle. BUilt my own tank though.

I know coolingmist is also good but I've got no personal experience with their system(s). Their HSV system seems nice though, definetly next level.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I have been running a snow performance stage 1 for about two years and it has worked great.

[FC3S Murray]

I have been running a snow performance stage 1 for about two years and it has worked great.

What are you running for meth/water mix?

I am curious on how much of a mixture I am going to need to run since this is really geared for reliabilty and not max power output.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I run two bottles of Heat Fuel Line Deicer mixed with a gallon of washer fluid usually. But recently I have went to straight meth since my dad had some left he wanted cleared out.

[FC3S Murray]

I might do straight water since my garage is heated....just hope my heater never goes tits up. I will never have the FC out in the winter or cold fall mornings.

How much of a mixture would one need to prevent freezing but not required to do a major up-tune.

[classicauto]

from my experience straight washer fluid doesn't alter the wideband readings. Assuming you're not spraying LOADS in there. I used up to 625cc with no real, quantifiable, change. Straight meth on 625cc would richen up consistently .2-.3AFR.

Straight water is what I run mostly, wouldn't think of using anything else if its saftey you're after and can keep freezing in check.

[RICE RACING]

Hello,

You may want to read this thread http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1706&start=30

I have run and set up allot of rotaries at varying levels over the years, you can see video and read more on the topic as it applies to wankels http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

Quite a few have followed and had similar results after following my guidance on set up and how to run it, you can achieve the same with virtually any decent "kit" does not need to be a certain vendors.

If you want a recommendation then you cant go past Aquamist for quality and freedom of placement of injector and fluid container.

Hope this is of some help to you?.

Peter

I have been searching recently for AUX injection just because I am looking for a safety cushion for my FC. I have read countless threads from the Aussie's and how most rotaries down under run water injection.

What i want to know is which company makes the best product.

I plan on using a single nozzle set-up that will spray right before the throttle body.

I have found a couple kits for a good price:

cooling mist: http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?feature_key=gasvehicles

Devils own: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/universal-stage-1-8.html


I have also considered doing dudeman's mechanical WI set-up.

Any input would be appreciated.

I will be running 14psi on 91 octane with my set-up(S4 13bt street ported, 62-1, 8.5:1 rotors, heavily modded) and this just seems like a smart investment.

[RICE RACING]

I might do straight water since my garage is heated....just hope my heater never goes tits up. I will never have the FC out in the winter or cold fall mornings.

How much of a mixture would one need to prevent freezing but not required to do a major up-tune.

To save you reading, from my findings 50/50 water and methanol will meet every requirement of yours.

No freezing
No retune
Best power
Highest cooling to economy of fluid use *important aspect*


Flow rates you need are posted in the other links I gave you. Tested to 17.5psi with T04Z and 13B-REW engine (higher compression than you).

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks Peter! BTW impressive numbers on that Rice Racing webpage.

I am thinking of going the snow performance route. I am still in the air if I want to go 50/50 oir straight H2O. If I do run 50/50 I will tune it to about 11/10.9:1 AFR since my last set-up was tuned at 11:1 AFR at 14.5 psi and about 10* IGN Leading and 11* Split on just 91 octane.

[RICE RACING]

With your compression ratio you will have no problems at all, you wont require much water if any at that boost level though it will be excellent insurance for you which is what its all about.

I run all my cars water injected, I hate turbocharged rotaries without it honestly. I have one customer in New Zealand who has been running my WI kit on his C16 8 sec drag car and he will not take it off due to his motor now running 3 times longer than it has at any time before and it sill has perfect compression.

It transforms the reliability of these engines. As another example in my apex seal collection I have a set out of one car that I maintained for years and in that time it covered 55,000km at boost levels of 25psi to 21psi all the time and making honest 530bhp *engine power* and the apex seal height with right level of premix and WI was better than a stock motor that had covered only 20,000km with no chamfering or nay signs of abnormal wear.

Should be compulsory on all Rotaries :beatdeadhorse5:

[FC3S Murray]

I agree. I just want to MAKE SURE that if my WI system ever fails that my motor won't pop due to it being progressivly tuned for the 50/50 mix...hence why I am thinking leaving it un-tuned.

[FC3S Murray]

Best as I'm sure you know is relative to your goals.

Sounds like you're looking fora little saftey net, yes? Not a full blown 1500+cc of meth and 30psi setup?

I would personally recommend either snowperformance or devil'sown. They're both simple, inexpensive and on most accounts pretty reliable. My snow system has been running for over two years with a variety of fluids and nozzles. Im running a progressive kit with a single nozzle. BUilt my own tank though.

I know coolingmist is also good but I've got no personal experience with their system(s). Their HSV system seems nice though, definetly next level.

Hey Classic, how much PSI is that Snow pump rated at?

[classicauto]

I believe the smaller, or standard, pump is 130-150psi which is what I'm using at the moment.

They offer a 220 or 240psi pump for multi nozzle setups. That will be the only upgrade I'd do. IMO the higher the pressure the better in these systems with a mechanical pump. Plus taking into account the different losses AND manifold pressure you really don't end up with much pressure at the head of the nozzle.

[FC3S Murray]

I emailed Snow and they said the newest stage 1 kit comes with a 220 psi output pump.

Either Devils own or Snow...need to decide. hmmm.

Devils own stage 1 has a 250psi pump but no tank for 240.00. Additional 35.00 for a 4qt tank.
Snow has the stage one for 304.00 with a 4 quart tank.

How long does a 4 qt tank last in relation to spirited driving?

[RICE RACING]

I agree. I just want to MAKE SURE that if my WI system ever fails that my motor won't pop due to it being progressivly tuned for the 50/50 mix...hence why I am thinking leaving it un-tuned.

*general point* Despite the internets and so much apparent knowledge allot of these companies and "specialist" have no idea that water injection fitted in the right location (while not touching one aspect of your car set ups timing nor fuel delivery) can and does provide a performance increase :driving:

I have a very old article from 1997 which I should scan and put up that shows a very similar system to mine that proves this with some official vehicle tests 3rd gear speed pulls.

The clincher is when the other type of system was trialed (post turbo injection with boat bilge pump) with various switch on points and injection volumes and mixes of fluid, NO PERFORMANCE GAINS WERE ACHIEVED.

In summary you can have your car fully tuned as is, then ad the right WI system and adjust it and you will get a safety increase and durability increase and to finish it off you will also get a measure performance gain :driving:

[knonfs]

To save you reading, from my findings 50/50 water and methanol will meet every requirement of yours.

No freezing
No retune
Best power
Highest cooling to economy of fluid use *important aspect*


Flow rates you need are posted in the other links I gave you. Tested to 17.5psi with T04Z and 13B-REW engine (higher compression than you).

Hey Peter,

How are you doing brother?

So you are now using a 50/50 mix with your pre-turbo setup?

[TitaniumTT]

So you're saying that right now, with my setup and current map, & I'm making 405rwhp on stock twins, that if I added WI I would GAIN power? Exactely how does injecting water, which is know to put out flames, gain power? Is it just through a cooler charge? If that is the case, than I doubt myself, or anyone with a very effiecent intercooler would see any real performance gains as my AIT's are near ambient anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is the performance gain only though cooler AIT's? I can see strait meth and bumping the timing gaining a ton of power, but the way you're touting water injection, doesn't seem logical.

[FC3S Murray]

So you're saying that right now, with my setup and current map, & I'm making 405rwhp on stock twins, that if I added WI I would GAIN power? Exactely how does injecting water, which is know to put out flames, gain power? Is it just through a cooler charge? If that is the case, than I doubt myself, or anyone with a very effiecent intercooler would see any real performance gains as my AIT's are near ambient anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is the performance gain only though cooler AIT's? I can see strait meth and bumping the timing gaining a ton of power, but the way you're touting water injection, doesn't seem logical.

Brian I think with a 30meth/70water mix(50/50 commonly called) you would see a performance gain and a better safety margin without re-tuning your map. Of course you could fine adjust your tune to accomadate the meth and get even more power BUT system failure could lead to motor failure.

I do think that if the owner is running an efficient IC and has very well routed heat scavanging system/under hood temp control, then WI might not seem like a very big factor in gaining HP. I do think however if the owner was to road race /circuit, that the WI with water only would just be a smart choice because you know that your AIT's are gonna rise..maybe not to extreme temps if your ducting is functional but those AIT's will be hotter then a motor with WI would record.

[RICE RACING]

I don't want to come across the wrong way with this so I will try to explain as neutrally as I can.

If you run a blend of meth to water at 50/50 on top of your normal tune given the right ratio (all cars have a sweet spot) for turn on point and amount to inject. When you inject pre turbo you will realize a net performance gain, This is brought about by a charge increase into the engine (more air and more fuel over and above anything that the water may displace). People not associated with me in any way have tested this and listed very significant acceleration gains in real world tests. A rough rule of thumb is you want around 100cc per 150bhp from my experience (though note each car set up is different in what it will respond too for best power, but rest assured it will increase the power and not decrease it if you follow the above recommendations)

The same qty and trigger points after the turbo yield no gains at all, but detonation is eliminated with either system.

Injection of a 100% water mixture on top of your existing safe tune up will cost you power but increase reliability and durability just to be clear.

[FC3S Murray]

So pre-turbo is better for performance and detionation while post-turbo will only lower detionation EVEN with a meth 50/50 mix?

[knonfs]

I don't want to come across the wrong way with this so I will try to explain as neutrally as I can.

If you run a blend of meth to water at 50/50 on top of your normal tune given the right ratio (all cars have a sweet spot) for turn on point and amount to inject. When you inject pre turbo you will realize a net performance gain, This is brought about by a charge increase into the engine (more air and more fuel over and above anything that the water may displace). People not associated with me in any way have tested this and listed very significant acceleration gains in real world tests. A rough rule of thumb is you want around 100cc per 150bhp from my experience (though note each car set up is different in what it will respond too for best power, but rest assured it will increase the power and not decrease it if you follow the above recommendations)

The same qty and trigger points after the turbo yield no gains at all, but detonation is eliminated with either system.

Injection of a 100% water mixture on top of your existing safe tune up will cost you power but increase reliability and durability just to be clear.

Can I run a mix blend with your kit? Or the do I have to modify anything (lines, filter, etc)?

[RICE RACING]

Can I run a mix blend with your kit? Or the do I have to modify anything (lines, filter, etc)?

I have been trialing exactly 50/50 Methanol to Water (by mass) for a while now and there is no problem so far, but I like to run tests for at least a year before I personally tell people its fine. (I do have customers who have run this way and reported no problems with any parts).

I have components in bottles of various solutions sitting for months/years at a time, I only started this one a month back... so far I can tell no ill effect on the above mixture.

[knonfs]

I have been trialing exactly 50/50 Methanol to Water (by mass) for a while now and there is no problem so far, but I like to run tests for at least a year before I personally tell people its fine. (I do have customers who have run this way and reported no problems with any parts).

I have components in bottles of various solutions sitting for months/years at a time, I only started this one a month back... so far I can tell no ill effect on the above mixture.

Sounds good, keeps us posted. Your kit has been sitting on the car for like 2 years now, and the car probably won't be ready before summer :beatdeadhorse5:

[TitaniumTT]

This is just my OCD acting up, but something about the way you're stating it isn't sitting right with me. If you tune your car and then lower the AIT's, you're now in sections of the map/comp tables that you've never been before, so you can't really say it's 100% safe unless you test and tune for it.

The reason that the pre-turbo is better for performance is becuase the charge air temp isn't climbing nearly as high with the introduction of water. I would like to see a test done on the dyno where you make a few pulls with no AI at all and monitor L, EGT's AIT's and PRE-intercooler charge temps. I have a bunch of logs that show my AIT's rise 10*F after 10-20 dyno runs over the course of 5 hours and they are within 10-15* of ambient unless some sort of heat soak issue has occured. This log in particular is close to a 400rwhp on stock twins run, look at the AIT's pre and post intercooler. As soon as the pedal is matted in 4th, the charge temps go from ~100* to 250* and follow the boost as it rises. This is pysics, there is no way around it, compressing a gas makes it hotter. Adding water pre-turbo will take some of this heat out. Cooler air (relatively) into an intercooler will give you cooler temps out.

Now I'm not knocking the knock resistance charateristics of it :rofl: but to say that the addition of water without a retune is a little far fetched becuase you'll be in area's of the map that you haven't explored. Aside from the knock resistance charaterics of it, for me, it just seems like a band-aid, sorry.

BUT, and this is a big but, if you're talking about big amounts of boost, then the benefits start to shine becuase lets face it, you can't escape pysics, more boost more heat, but for street cars and 250* charge temps, and near ambient intake temps..... I don't think it's really worth it. A properly ducted and sealed intercooler with good effeicency is more reliable than a WI system. Now if we want to talk about chemical intercooling, that's something totally different and something that I would like to explore on my FD becuase I have 500rwhp plans for that car and more experimenting..... plus it's time to finish the FC.... relatively speaking anyway.

[TitaniumTT]

Might help if I post up the datalog......

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7408&stc=1&d=1266472137

[RICE RACING]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and thoughts :001_005:

[TitaniumTT]

Well, this is the whole problem with MAP based systems. If you increase the mass of air moving into the engine without retuning for it, engine go boom. The extreme example is the stock twins @ 15psi vs a GT60 @ 15psi. 15psi is not 15psi and you need to be careful especially with a MAP based system. It the WI pre-turbo is really changing the mass of air entering the engine by way of cooler charge temps, then as you state here,

This is brought about by a charge increase into the engine (more air and more fuel over and above anything that the water may displace).

than I wouldn't think that slapping a WI system on is going to be safe. However, if boost levels are kept constant, the mass isn't going to change dramatically, the water is displacing some of the mass, and the cooler charge temps are being properly compensated, the difference is minimal. I just feel that to say zero re-tune is needed is a little sketchy is all.

[dudemaaan]

In my experience the tune doesn't change or need any changes when adding water (mine is preturbo). My AFR's didn't change at all when adding the water, my air temps didn't really change much either. They did seem to stay more constant on long pulls, and even when I increased the boost an extra 8 psi the air temps stayed the same. I never dynoed before and after the water or anything, but to me it felt a little stronger. I don't think it's a large increase in power if you keep the same boost levels, but when you safely add another 8-10 or more psi you definitely feel the power increase.

If IAT's were to drop then the ecu will compensate for the extra air by using the air corrections table.

Another thing to consider is the knock killing effects of water would allow you to run the car leaner and still be safe. So even if the tune changed by adding water the water would protect it. (although.. again, in my experience the tune doesn't change)

Peter (rice) how much boost are you running on the 50/50 mix with what turbo?

[RICE RACING]

I have run up to 21psi, all tested with the best performance analysis gear on earth (Race Logic VBOX3i) and (no retune), but hey I am "sketchy" :rofl:

I have customer in NZ with 8 sec drag car who runs 36psi same system set up and water meth (no retune)

Numerous cars in Australia, running straight methanol with water/meth in front of the turbo (no retune) all make more power, run faster, and last much much longer :beatdeadhorse5:

When I get a chance I will try to scan this article that ran this exact same system (following all parameters I stated) that showed "massive gains" in on road performance V's no performance gain for post turbo. This has not changed since the last 100 years, everyone who has tried it who is qualified in mechanical engineering all agree and come to the same conclusions :) all others (not so smart or dare I say qualified to comment) call it a band aid :rofl:

[dudemaaan]

Did you notice much change in AFR's with the methanol? And air temps? Does the decreased cooling inside the engine have any increase on knock? I was going to test mixtures of alcohol, but the water works so good and is free, makes me feel like there is little point. If I decide I want more power I just turn the knob on the boost controller clockwise.

[FC3S Murray]

here it goes..................awaiting Brian's response....

[RICE RACING]

Did you notice much change in AFR's with the methanol? And air temps? Does the decreased cooling inside the engine have any increase on knock? I was going to test mixtures of alcohol, but the water works so good and is free, makes me feel like there is little point. If I decide I want more power I just turn the knob on the boost controller clockwise.

I have zero knock in my set up anyway so that was harder to quantify but I can reduce the rate of W/M compared to just water as it seems to be more volatile. The power 100% goes up, its a big difference.

Note: the tests I was doing all keep everything the same, so it was just different mixtures & effects on performance.

[RICE RACING]

here it goes..................awaiting Brian's response....

Screw the internet nobodies mate ;)

When you can say you know more than Sir Harry Ricardo, Frank Walker or Hugh McInnes then come talk to me :leaving: any other "band aid" type comments are ALL you will find posted by no bodies, un qualified and opinionated wannabe engineers :o10:

The one thing I have found over many years is there are qualified people who know engines then there are the unqualified who work off conjecture, rumor, opinions and their own "feelings".

All of that is a waste of time, the only constant is peoples short memories and the amazing ability to forget what was discovered many many years ago :banghead:

[FC3S Murray]

Alright guys I am almost ready to purchase my Snow Performance stage 1 kit.
I have a couple concerns/ ideas that I want to ask about and make sure my thinking is correct....

1) I have posted a ques on the other forum and Barry Bordes mentioned I should put 1 175ml/min nozzle PRE-turbo and 1 175ml/min post turbo by the throttle body bend. I am reluctant to go pre-turbo since I will be pushing only 15 psi....18 max and have read most big gains AND effectiveness of pre-turbo is at higher boost. Plus my turbo inlet duct is very short and my filter wont accomodate a nozzle...i really like my filter :) Check out my old engine bay attached pic and let me know what you think.


2) I want to instead of installing one 375 ml/min nozzle on my set up post-turbo and go with two 175 ml/sec nozzles opposite of each other in the bend before the throttle body on my intercooler piping. My thinking behind this is the smaller nozzles will atomize better then the 375ml/min nozzle at the pump 220 psi WHILE still supplying close to the same amount in a minute.

...is my thinking correct?


remember I originally wanted to run only water for knock suppresion BUT have found that 50/50 mix has the best of both worlds with little to no re-tune.

Thanks for the help guys.

[classicauto]

I like that location. You're correct about improved atomization on smaller nozzles vs. larger at least in this context.

Food for thought though, instead of going preturbo, you could go as close to the turbo outlet as possible which will take some load off the intercooler. But I think your idea will work awesome!

[dudemaaan]

I think one of the main advantages of running preturbo is due to the atomization that the water gets going through the compressor. The water is much easier to burn and can take the heat out of the combustion chamber easier then large water droplets. There is also evidence supporting preturbo extending the compressor map, which would only be an advantage once you start maxing the turbo out.

[FC3S Murray]

Food for thought though, instead of going preturbo, you could go as close to the turbo outlet as possible which will take some load off the intercooler. But I think your idea will work awesome!


I thought about that BUT my main concern of mounting the nozzles farther down stream from my TB is being located before my damn relief valve.

If I ever overboost I AT LEAST want my 50/50 mix still supplying the motor under these brief severe conditions...again hypathetical but at least some what safer then high boost with no WI:rofl: That is one of the main reasons I do not want to go pre-turbo. However I do hope that the nozzle location in my prev picture is far enough away from the rotor chambers to let the meth "flash" with the water/air....



My last concern is going to be how to mount the 2 nozzles. I was originally going to mount them 180 degrees from each other BUT after reading some of Howard Coleman's posts, the 3 and 6 o'clock positions seem the best. Anyone have any input on this?

BTW, snow performance contacted me and told me that there is only a 5PSI differance in pressure at the nozzle of 2 175ml/min nozzles compared to 1 375ml/min nozzle. hmmmm, still.. slightly better atomization with 2 nozzles.

I think one of the main advantages of running preturbo is due to the atomization that the water gets going through the compressor. The water is much easier to burn and can take the heat out of the combustion chamber easier then large water droplets. There is also evidence supporting preturbo extending the compressor map, which would only be an advantage once you start maxing the turbo out.


I totally agree. I will only be pushing 15 psi on my 62-1 so I am no where close to maxing it out lol. I am very impressed by you D.I.Y. system. I am also excited to see how your fast reacting AIT does when I install my WI system.

[dudemaaan]

I don't think nozzle mounting position will matter a whole lot. I think distance will be more of a factor. Some people face the nozzles into the air stream, but only experimenting will tell if there is an advantage to this. As far as 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock I don't see how there would be much difference and wouldn't stress about it too much.

[FC3S Murray]

I am starting to wonder if 350ml/min is going to be enough 50/50 mix with my set-up? I know 350 ml/min of just water should be plenty to reduce knock BUT with 50/50 mix would I have too little water in the mix to beneficially reduce knock?

I want lower intake temps and some good knock protection.

[dudemaaan]

Obviously the more you run the more knock suppression and lower intake temps you'll get. It will also make a bit of a difference if your mixing 50/50 by volume or by weight. If by volume then you are still running more water then methanol. Your boost levels aren't really that high though, so you should be fine with that size nozzle and proper tuning.