Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..

[Bryan@BNR]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

I have to say phill that I disagree with your builder. I cleanrece all of the rotors we use in engines that we build.

There is no risk in having it, only a risk in not having it if you are running more power than stock.

This is my professional opinion.


Basically you have a rotor that has clearence for operating in what the stock form was engineered for. By increasing combustion pressure you are going to move the rotors back and for more often and with more force risking the rotor touching the side plates....

The rotors don't move side to side during flex. They are boxed in and float on the eshaft. When flex occurs the rotor is being tilted with the eshaft that deflects with the load that is being put on it. If anything contacts the irons, it is the corners of the rotor.

[glenrx7]

Yes they do ....Read "rotary engine" by the man (Kenichi Yamamoto) that designed mazdas rotaries...It states the fact very clearly....


Deformation of the shaft will also "tilt" the rotors this is true.

[glenrx7]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

WOW Glen, Did you even read my initial question??

Here it goes, read it again..



So, was I asking for specific spec's to how you 'cleanrences' the rotors?? Before you telling me to go back and read, you should see what I was asking. I understand that you have specific way of clearance the rotors and I was asking what you are clearancing. Simple question which you NOW have explained over and over after I posted what I thought you meant by clearance need to be increased (from RB's info about clearance of rotor).

Regarding your statement about my builders, I could say the same about pretty much every builder out there.. Including yourself.

Phill I am still not telling you what we do ....the fact is racing beat give the general idea...I said this

I feel it would have been wrong to quote racing beat or even Mazdatrix becuase they do something very different than what we do. Yet this is the same Idea we just go about it differently and this is not something I want to share.


Why are you trying to make this personal ....I mean dude i have bent over backwards to help you guys when you needed it I have supported your forum but you attack me ....

no now I have to get in an argument with others that "clearly " using this is an opportunity to look good ...I was trying to help educate enthusists not my competitors.

[Bryan@BNR]

rotors float on oil and also float on compression seals and springs. The only way for them to hit is from the shaft flexing or improper rotor bearing clearance. If that shaft stayed strait, you wouldn't have any problems with them bumping.

I am not trying to ruin your reputation or anything or get on your bad side. I love building engines as well and have built a ton of them. I like finding solutions to problems and fully understanding what everything does. There is always something someone can teach ya no matter how many years you do something. I just figured I would chime in and say a few things...

Bryan@BNR

[glenrx7]

Again read the book.......

Yes the rotors from combustion can and do move side to side.....

The fact is your are making a statement that is not true.

Yes deformation is the main issue with the rotors not having enough clearence . Once the combustion pressure becomes overwelhming the rotors with get pushed from side to side. These are thign kenichi points out and developed cleanrece to avoid. Remeber we are talking an increase of at least 25% and above

[sk8world]

A little of subject here.... But sometimes I wonder if all the changes some builders make cause more harm. No builders specific here I speak of but I have scene many engines fail from some of these mods. From improper ports to adding over sized studs-dowels... I speced my current motor-build but decided not to have the rotors ground as they seemed close enough. I only wish I had did more reasearch on the rotor faces for high HP clearence.

My reason I state this as I have scene many motors on here lately some even stock (ports-everything) making sick power and out lasting some high dollar built ones. Mine was built from used housings and plates, rotors, no laping or grinding, no oil mods, no extra studs or dowels, center section balanced by Luis, all oem parts except ALS seals..making 617rwhp. Have 6500 miles so far and many drag passes. Not sure how long I expect to see it last with running it how I do. I believe having everything right from wiring, tune, fuel system plays a larger roll than some of these special engine mods made.. Just my thought..

Ok back on subject.....

[glenrx7]

Originally Posted by sk8world

A little of subject here.... But sometimes I wonder if all the changes some builders make cause more harm. No builders specific here I speak of but I have scene many engines fail from some of these mods. From improper ports to adding over sized studs-dowels... I speced my current motor-build but decided not to have the rotors ground as they seemed close enough. I only wish I had did more reasearch on the rotor faces for high HP clearence.

My reason I state this as I have scene many motors on here lately some even stock (ports-everything) making sick power and out lasting some high dollar built ones. Mine was built from used housings and plates, rotors, no laping or grinding, no oil mods, no extra studs or dowels, center section balanced by Luis, all oem parts except ALS seals..making 617rwhp. Have 6500 miles so far and many drag passes. Not sure how long I expect to see it last with running it how I do. I believe having everything right from wiring, tune, fuel system plays a larger roll than some of these special engine mods made.. Just my thought..

Ok back on subject.....

I agree with you Mike....... That is basiclly the point I was trying to make ..I am about as articulate as a 3 years old on acid...


Let me go back to the rotors hittting the walls.

1. yes shaft deformation is a main casuse .
2. you have to understand that when this engine gets "sandwitched together compressing the seals to a "stroke heighth" that is very small. Yes this is to keep the rotors "floating" but at high combustion it is easy to push the rotor side to side.

So, yes they can hit the plates with out having a bent shaft.


Mike, having clearnce rotors is an insurance policy I have seen engines make tons of power and then snap ...they have a bent shaft and the rotors have smacked the plates and it rebuild time ....rebuilt with clearnced rotors and they are making the same power yet lasting longer.

Rotor clearnce is not going to help much if you have a bad build or tuning wiring etc...It all has to come together to be right.

Mike....600 club, congrats dude I did not know you got that far.

[sk8world]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

I agree with you Mike....... That is basiclly the point I was trying to make ..I am about as articulate as a 3 years old on acid...




Mike, having clearnce rotors is an insurance policy I have seen engines make tons of power and then snap ...they have a bent shaft and the rotors have smacked the plates and it rebuild time ....rebuilt with clearnced rotors and they are making the same power yet lasting longer.

Rotor clearnce is not going to help much if you have a bad build or tuning wiring etc...It all has to come together to be right.

Mike....600 club, congrats dude I did not know you got that far.

Thanks Glen...

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen. Don't always believe what you read!!! HAHA

[glenrx7]

From the man That designed it ...No why would I believe him ....Oh and I have seen it on an engine dyno myself under testing with yaw serveral times come on man ....

You have nothing to back up your statement... If so lets hear it

[Bryan@BNR]

Hold on let me go get my ASE certified Rotary Bible.

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen.

I have taken apart 100's or rotary engines. That being said. I have never, ever seen a rotor make FLAT contact with the irons UNLESS it was so overheated the irons swelled so much that they made full contact with the rotors. The times that I did see rotor to iron contact (with no overheating, rotor or main bearing clearance issues), it was when the rotor tips made contact with the irons. That means the rotor journals weren't perpedicular anymore to the end plates. The rotor is going to go in the direction of the shaft lobe.

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by Bryan@BNR

Glen.

I have taken apart 100's or rotary engines. That being said. I have never, ever seen a rotor make FLAT contact with the irons UNLESS it was so overheated the irons swelled so much that they made full contact with the rotors. The times that I did see rotor to iron contact (with no overheating, rotor or main bearing clearance issues), it was when the rotor tips made contact with the irons. That means the rotor journals weren't perpedicular anymore to the end plates. The rotor is going to go in the direction of the shaft lobe.

That's interesting Bryan. So statically you have seen 0 out of 100+ engine failure you've seen that was caused by rotor clearance issue?

I'm going to call Luis and see how many he has seen... I'm just curious..

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill, wtf do you want ...You asked I gave you what you asked for

Glennn,

Thanks for the favor of explaining clearancing the rotor after pretty much I explained what it is after posting the RB article. What you did was not answer it in the beginning and pretty much said it was some top secret stuff you did to the rotors. Again, read what I've posted.

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill I am still not telling you what we do ....the fact is racing beat give the general idea...I said this

Jesus! Do you still think I give a damn if you gave me the detail specs or not?? Please read over.... as I NEVER ASKED FOR A SPECIFICS OF YOUR CLEARANCING YOUR ROTORS!!! I asked What Do you Clearance!! That's what I asked in the beginning.

The point is this. I think maybe you are going bit too far with this propreitary, secret stuff. I don't know if this is a marketing strategy or what not, but every builder has their own little way they do things. Is it proprietary as you speak?? Sure, I guess its their little secret of how they do things. But at this point, all I saw from you is slight arrogance that so called clearancing the rotor is essential/MUST for all rotors. Even though thousands of stock motors never got your so called clearancing have made tens of thousands of miles without it. So statistically, I and my builder's statement about how its NOT necessary is a CORRECT statement!!

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Why are you trying to make this personal ....I mean dude i have bent over backwards to help you guys when you needed it I have supported your forum but you attack me ....

no now I have to get in an argument with others that "clearly " using this is an opportunity to look good ...I was trying to help educate enthusists not my competitors.

I do appreciate you coming on here and supported the forum. But you should also see it as two way street. You might feel that you been helping me, but I also see it as I been helping you. Hell, even this thread as it seems like its gotten to be a pretty popular thread.

Second part of the quote above, I'm not sure.. Who do you think is using this 'opportunity to look good'?? I think at this point we are all having a conversation and clearancing the rotor isn't something that you came up with and you are not sharing specific measurements so I don't see how others are using this opportunity to make themselves look good?? **Before you state again that I'm asking you for your specific NUMBER.. I AM NOT!!!**

And finally, let me state to the public that I have nothing against you. I was bit irritated when you kind of blew me off and keep stating that its propreitary stuff. (By the way, proprietary in my mind is something brand new ie new technology or technique and I don't think you actually developed clearancing, you just have a specific amount you take off.) And after that, I think its you who mis-read what I've posted after that cause you to also attack me.. But I wouldn't really call it attack. Either case, Hope no hard feelings.. Just wanted to make sure you understood. Again, I am NOT asking for specific numbers

Personally, and this is my personal opinion (NOT PROFESSIONAL) I don't think it makes much difference to me as I have no intention of racing nor would I break down a stock motor to just get clearancing. If I was to build a motor that spin 10K for extended amounts of time than i would probably do so, whom I would get it done, I would consider Glen.

[Herblenny]

I just got off the phone with Luis and asked him how many engines he has seen where clearancing was an issue.

He stated that he has seen about 8 race engines that was caused by clearance issue. And about 2 street driven car because of the issue. That's close to 30 years of him building engines... I'm guessing well over 300 engines? He didn't know exactly how many engine he broke down.

He also emphasized that 2 street driven cars were because the owners were revving beyond 8K as they were driven 'the hell out of those cars'. He also made a point to me that its very uncommon for engine that followed stock spec clearance will have issues when used on street. Also, he said its "waste of money" to do it on a street car as its NOT necessary.