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-   -   Carbotech brake pad advice (http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=18467)

speedjunkie 12-20-2014 02:45 PM

Carbotech brake pad advice
 
I've been shopping around for brake pads and I think I've settled on Carbotech, but now I'm trying to decide which ones fit my needs the most. Looking at their site, you'd think that they all dust an insane amount and make noise, OR they don't work for shit but are perfect. I know that can't be the case. After searching on this site I've found some folks that love them.

I have an FD and I'll be installing the RZ brakes with APP Sports 2pc rotors, and I have N-Tech ducting plates that I'll be installing and I plan to run ducts to them (obviously), I'm just not sure where to install the inlets just yet. I was thinking about making an undertray and installing them in that, but that might be down the road and in the mean time maybe I can put them somewhere else.

I haven't gotten on track yet, but I do a good bit of spirited driving on curvy roads in the mountains. I don't remember ever having a problem with fade, and with the additional cooling from the ducts and wider rotors, I don't foresee it being a problem now either. At least not until I get on track. So I'm thinking AX6 would be my choice. However, I've read some people on here using XP8 and XP10 and being happy with those. I don't mind some extra dusting as long as it's reasonable, but noise on the street I can't really handle too much.

Also, I'm planning on powder coating the new calipers. Are there any downsides to that? Such as not as efficient cooling, or maybe the little temperature strip not reading accurately if I ever get on track and decide to put one on my brakes to see how hot they get?

Thanks!

TitaniumTT 12-21-2014 04:22 PM

I run the carbotechs and love them for what they are, oh, I run the XP-08Dust-A-Lots. The noise on the street isn't all that bad, infact they only time I hear them is pulling to a stop with almost zero pressure, and they squeak a little, it's really not that bad at all. The dust on the other hand.... Oh man... it's pretty bad, especially with the wheels I run they are a bitch to clean, and need it almost every week... Ive been slacking lately and it's gotten to the point that I'm going to have to pull the wheels to clean them properly.

It got so bad that a few years ago I bought a set of the AX6's and threw them in when I put the car back on the rd in the spring. I ran them down to DGRR and for a month after that, then I had a track day and put the XP08 Dusty's in there.... I haven't taken them out yet, they stopping power is that much better.

Heat is another problem that I have been fighting, they create so much heat, and with the al hat on the 2-piece rotor, all that heat gets transmitted to the hub and then to the bearings, so I'm constantly tightening wheel bearings and repacking bearings, the FD has a different hub/bearing and it might be fine, but I would duct the FUCK outta the front brakes....

RETed 12-21-2014 06:16 PM

Side note on brake dust...

I dunno if you guys know of this product called P21S *gel*...

This stuff has been recently released in a past few years?

I came across this stuff on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgW-XDKRxuU
There's a bunch of them vids on YouTube if you do a search (i.e. "p21s gel").

Brake dust should not be a problem anymore. :D


-Ted

speedjunkie 12-21-2014 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT (Post 294972)
I run the carbotechs and love them for what they are, oh, I run the XP-08Dust-A-Lots. The noise on the street isn't all that bad, infact they only time I hear them is pulling to a stop with almost zero pressure, and they squeak a little, it's really not that bad at all. The dust on the other hand.... Oh man... it's pretty bad, especially with the wheels I run they are a bitch to clean, and need it almost every week... Ive been slacking lately and it's gotten to the point that I'm going to have to pull the wheels to clean them properly.

It got so bad that a few years ago I bought a set of the AX6's and threw them in when I put the car back on the rd in the spring. I ran them down to DGRR and for a month after that, then I had a track day and put the XP08 Dusty's in there.... I haven't taken them out yet, they stopping power is that much better.

Heat is another problem that I have been fighting, they create so much heat, and with the al hat on the 2-piece rotor, all that heat gets transmitted to the hub and then to the bearings, so I'm constantly tightening wheel bearings and repacking bearings, the FD has a different hub/bearing and it might be fine, but I would duct the FUCK outta the front brakes....

Cool. I'm not really big on dust as much as noise. I guess I haven't had pads that dust as much as yours probably, so it's a small issue to me now, but probably not if I dealt with it as much as you do. So dust and heat are your only issues with them? And you like the XP08 more than the AX6? I'm not too keen on messing up my bearings, but I am planning on ducting the new setup, so maybe it won't be so bad.

A buddy that uses Carbotechs also sent me a link for Winmax pads. I've never heard of them before today and I didn't find anything on either here or 7club about them, but I googled them and I guess they're pretty legit in Japan and some S2000 and FT86 guys use them. I'd still be nervous running them without anyone else's experience with them on their FD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed (Post 294974)
Side note on brake dust...

I dunno if you guys know of this product called P21S *gel*...

This stuff has been recently released in a past few years?

I came across this stuff on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgW-XDKRxuU
There's a bunch of them vids on YouTube if you do a search (i.e. "p21s gel").

Brake dust should not be a problem anymore. :D


-Ted

Thanks, Ted! I'll check that out.

Smokey 12-23-2014 07:07 AM

You're ultimately going to be let down by trying to find one pad that does both street and track well. Track oriented pads will dust too much and have very nasty dust, and street pads won't handle the heat on track.

I can say that of the track pads I've used that Carbotech had the "lightest" dust meaning it was a lighter grey color and wiped off easier, but it was definitely still way more dust than a street pad.

I think you should look at the AX pads for the street and a set of XP10s or higher (based on temp) for the track.

speedjunkie 12-23-2014 03:54 PM

Yeah that's what I figured. Well it will mostly be on the street with some occasional driving on curvy mountain roads. So, because of that, I REALLY want some good pads haha. However, I'll have the front brakes ducted, so I think that will allow me to run some higher end street pads (I'm leaning towards the AX6 actually) and still get away with not having as much dust and noise and still have good cold bite. I honestly don't mind the dust as much, but noise I'm not sure I could handle. Not a squealing noise anyway, not constantly.

I've read some good reviews by the S2000 and FT86 guys about those Winmax pads too. And supposedly they have some that are good for spirited driving and light track use, but I've been comparing temp ranges and all that with the Carbotechs just to see what's comparable.

Smokey 12-24-2014 04:47 AM

For the noise use this grease: http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-24125...c+brake+grease

It's usually available at NAPA and you'll know it's the right stuff cause it's purple if you look inside the bottle. It's never failed me no matter how hot things got.

mazpower 12-24-2014 11:24 AM

Another Carbotech user here...I run XP10/XP8s on my FD and my NSX and XP10s on the Wilwood BBK on my Miata. I drive all of these cars on the street and they work awesome, only issue is noise, its worse with the Miata but very light on the FD and NSX. Dust is an issue on all three cars...just gotta stay on top of keeping the wheels clean. Small price to pay for insane braking. :)

GySgtFrank 12-24-2014 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazpower (Post 295280)
Another Carbotech user here...I run XP10/XP8s on my FD and my NSX and XP10s on the Wilwood BBK on my Miata. I drive all of these cars on the street and they work awesome, only issue is noise, its worse with the Miata but very light on the FD and NSX. Dust is an issue on all three cars...just gotta stay on top of keeping the wheels clean. Small price to pay for insane braking. :)

and this is coming from a man that needs all the braking he can get. :lol:

speedjunkie 12-24-2014 01:53 PM

What kind of noise do they make? Is it a squealing or like a chatter or something? All the time or during braking or what? Is it just from the friction between the pad and the rotor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey (Post 295264)
For the noise use this grease: http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-24125...c+brake+grease

It's usually available at NAPA and you'll know it's the right stuff cause it's purple if you look inside the bottle. It's never failed me no matter how hot things got.

Thanks! I'm assuming you're talking about putting this on the back of the pads themselves, correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazpower (Post 295280)
Another Carbotech user here...I run XP10/XP8s on my FD and my NSX and XP10s on the Wilwood BBK on my Miata. I drive all of these cars on the street and they work awesome, only issue is noise, its worse with the Miata but very light on the FD and NSX. Dust is an issue on all three cars...just gotta stay on top of keeping the wheels clean. Small price to pay for insane braking. :)

Yeah I've seen you post about them. So the XP10/XP8 combo has enough cold bite for the street? That's one thing I'm worried about. I'm planning on ducting the front brakes when I install all this so I'm wondering if I can use the AX6s and be OK. I'll keep the wheels clean, no worries there. My main issues are noise and cold bite.


It doesn't seem like anyone really knows about Winmax yet. Oh well.
Thanks guys!

mazpower 12-24-2014 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GySgtFrank (Post 295297)
and this is coming from a man that needs all the braking he can get. :lol:

Brakes are for pussies. Nevar lift breh! :rofl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedjunkie (Post 295298)
What kind of noise do they make? Is it a squealing or like a chatter or something? All the time or during braking or what? Is it just from the friction between the pad and the rotor?

High pitched squeal on light braking. Nothing on heavy braking. Depends on brake temp too. I ran XP8s on my old S2K (my wife's now) and it would squeal horribly if you crept up to a stop. If you stopped quick with good pedal pressure, it wouldn't make a sound.

Quote:

Yeah I've seen you post about them. So the XP10/XP8 combo has enough cold bite for the street? That's one thing I'm worried about. I'm planning on ducting the front brakes when I install all this so I'm wondering if I can use the AX6s and be OK. I'll keep the wheels clean, no worries there. My main issues are noise and cold bite.
I've never had any cold bite issues. The very first time you brake on a cold day might feel a bit "vague" but no issues with stopping. After that, they feel fine. I've never had a problem with my XP10s cooling off too much and losing any feel. In comparison, the Wilwood E-Prod pads I used to run on my Miata were horrible that way...they had to stay hot. Not the case with the Carbotechs. Also something to consider is my "cold" temps never really got below 30 degrees F, if you live somewhere colder than that, not sure how that would affect things.

Noise really is the big one but with the stock calipers on the FD and NSX I don't really hear much. NSX will make little squeaks every now and then and the FD is silent. S2K was like a damn school bus and same for the Miata. Never used any brake quieting compound...I tried it once on the S2K and ended up just melting the brake quiet lol.

Quote:

It doesn't seem like anyone really knows about Winmax yet. Oh well.
Thanks guys!
I've never heard of those pads. If you end up going that direction let us know what you think of them...very curious!

Smokey 12-24-2014 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedjunkie (Post 295298)
Thanks! I'm assuming you're talking about putting this on the back of the pads themselves, correct?

Put it places where there will be metal to metal contact so the edges where the pads touch the caliper and the backing plate where the pistons touch. Just a thin layer; doesn't need to be crazy and don't get it on the friction surface.

speedjunkie 12-25-2014 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazpower (Post 295305)
High pitched squeal on light braking. Nothing on heavy braking. Depends on brake temp too. I ran XP8s on my old S2K (my wife's now) and it would squeal horribly if you crept up to a stop. If you stopped quick with good pedal pressure, it wouldn't make a sound.

I've never had any cold bite issues. The very first time you brake on a cold day might feel a bit "vague" but no issues with stopping. After that, they feel fine. I've never had a problem with my XP10s cooling off too much and losing any feel. In comparison, the Wilwood E-Prod pads I used to run on my Miata were horrible that way...they had to stay hot. Not the case with the Carbotechs. Also something to consider is my "cold" temps never really got below 30 degrees F, if you live somewhere colder than that, not sure how that would affect things.

Noise really is the big one but with the stock calipers on the FD and NSX I don't really hear much. NSX will make little squeaks every now and then and the FD is silent. S2K was like a damn school bus and same for the Miata. Never used any brake quieting compound...I tried it once on the S2K and ended up just melting the brake quiet lol.

I've never heard of those pads. If you end up going that direction let us know what you think of them...very curious!

I forgot Brian had already chimed in on the noise haha...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT (Post 294972)
The noise on the street isn't all that bad, infact they only time I hear them is pulling to a stop with almost zero pressure, and they squeak a little, it's really not that bad at all.

Never hurts to get more input though. I'm not sure I can handle high pitched squeal. I do a good bit of light braking on the street too, and I'm in Colorado so the temps aren't usually very high until summer, but I don't drive it near as much in the winter either. Our temps do get below 30F occasionally during the winter, but only so often and on those days I'm not driving it anyway haha. Tough call.

If I get the Winmax pads I'll let someone more experienced with brake pads drive my car and I'll tell you what he says lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey (Post 295312)
Put it places where there will be metal to metal contact so the edges where the pads touch the caliper and the backing plate where the pistons touch. Just a thin layer; doesn't need to be crazy and don't get it on the friction surface.

Ok cool. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT (Post 294972)
Heat is another problem that I have been fighting, they create so much heat, and with the al hat on the 2-piece rotor, all that heat gets transmitted to the hub and then to the bearings, so I'm constantly tightening wheel bearings and repacking bearings, the FD has a different hub/bearing and it might be fine, but I would duct the FUCK outta the front brakes....

Anyone else have a problem with heat?

mazpower 12-25-2014 09:21 AM

I have yet to fry any wheel bearings or warp rotors even on slowing the Miata down on the track or when playing on the street. :dunno:

TitaniumTT 12-25-2014 10:22 AM

I believe the Miata has, and in know the FD has sealed ball bearings. The FC runs a taper needle bearing. The former is much less susceptible to heat. Also, running a one piece rotor helps tremendously as well.
I need to change the bearings, repack with a very high quality grease, reduct the front end, and then go play on the track and see what happens, I'm fairly confident I can get this issue under control. Problem is thee aren't many FC guys running a 13.25" two piece front rotor with hitemp track pads :lol:


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